Difference between revisions of "Rules"

From SaveTheWorld - a project of The Partnership Machine, Inc. (Sponsor: Family Music Center)

 
(79 intermediate revisions by the same user not shown)
Line 1: Line 1:
 +
{| class="wikitable"
 +
|[[Forum]] (Articles)
 +
|[[Offer]]
 +
|[[Partners]]
 +
|[[Rules]]
 +
|[[Tips]]
 +
|[[SaveTheWorld:FAQ]]
 +
|[[Begin!]]
 +
|[https://www.paypal.com/donate/?token=G3A8DgIJOtxZ3zn7_1cVGnF-lRSUzXCVpSf30Q7Gd_zLYTBERe7VSt2YrZSlihtU6K4lYW&country.x=US&locale.x=US Donate]
 +
|}
  
== What are your rules? ==
+
== What you CAN'T do is what you wouldn't do anyway ==
 
   
 
   
 
Rules (that are conditions of participation) are simple and short:  
 
Rules (that are conditions of participation) are simple and short:  
  
<blockquote>'''No irrelevant material – profanity, advertisements, or other spam''' will get you instantly banned. Personal attacks will be deleted and you will receive a warning, if they seem subtle and perhaps not intentional; if they seem mean you will be banned. Contributions only marginally on the subject of an article or a subheading will be deleted.
+
<blockquote>'''Nothing irrelevant allowed! Profanity, advertisements*, or other spam''' will get you instantly banned. '''Personal attacks''' (as opposed to relevant "criticism") will be deleted and you will receive a warning, <span style="color:#BFBFBF"> or the attack portion may be greyed, </span> if they seem marginally relevant to the discussion; if they seem mean or gratuitous, and are the whole substance of your content, you will be banned. Contributions only marginally on the subject of an article or a subheading will be deleted. Or perhaps moved if an editor finds a place where they are appropriate. The only time it is relevant to attack the character or qualifications of a ''person'' rather than ''the merits of an issue'' is ''when the person is the issue:'' for example he is a candidate for public office. But even then, ''unsupported'' criticism is a "personal attack".
 +
</blockquote>
  
'''No legally prohibited material – plagiarism or copyrighted material'''. No plagiarism: if you quote somebody, use quote marks and say who you are quoting; and even if you give credit, don’t copy and past large portions of copyrighted material. (Using much more than 5% of a copyrighted book or article can get you in court, if you are not criticizing it.) Violators will be banned.  
+
That's about all that you ''can't'' do.
  
'''No lying.''' No “Devil’s Advocates”. Don’t goad opponents in conversation by playing “Devil’s Advocate” by saying you believe what you don’t, making the errors in what they are saying a moving target for your opponents. A test of whether this is what you are doing is if you agree with a position at one point and dispute it in another, without clarifying the difference or admitting you have changed your mind. This is our most subjective rule.</blockquote>
+
*Actually '''we will allow a bit of advertising, in your personal page,''' because we would ''like'' to know about your business as well as your political life. But after dealing with about 12,000 incoherent spam posts that existed only for a link, here are some rules:
  
You ''won’t'' be censored for any sincerely held, rationally presented political or politically relevant religious view. Our format allows you to disagree with anyone. However, you will be challenged.
+
<> Your link must be to a legitimate product or service that you ''personally'' provide.
  
You don’t ''have'' to back anything up. That is, you won’t be banned for not backing up anything, or for disagreeing with everybody. However, if you contribute something so counterintuitive and lacking in backing that the question arises how you could possibly believe it yourself, and you ignore subsequent requests to better explain your idea, your contribution may be moved to a “Hit and run” or “abandoned” category.  
+
<> You may not advertise a business based on fraud, lust, greed, or spam. Your business must be one which serves others, as opposed to deceiving others or tempting others to sin.  
  
Our purpose is to persuade people who used to disagree. We trust it is also your purpose to persuade, or at least to seem reasonably intelligent. So we offer several '''tips''' you might want to think about even though following them is not “required” for you to participate. These '''tips''' aim at common sense relationship skills that will make you more persuasive in any situation.  
+
<> You may give the text of a link, but you may not activate it.  
  
'''What information is required to register?''' Your real first and last name, state, political party with which you are actually registered, and any 50 character max description with which you would like to further clarify your political and/or religious views, will be displayed wherever you leave an edit
+
<> You may describe your service with up to 100 words, provided they make sense and are informative and interesting, as opposed to spam which is incoherent.
  
In addition we need information we will not display: your email so that, without displaying it online, other participants can contact you through the website’s “inmail”.  
+
<> You may not advertise anything at all if you are here only to advertise and not to join the political conversation. If you do that, your entire account will be deleted and you will be blocked from reapplying. However, provided your political posts are thoughtful and sensible (whether or not they agree with anyone) you are welcome to post up to 100 words advertising your service, provided you have posted at least that much on political topics.  
  
To confirm your real name, party registration, and state, upload an image of your voter registration card. If any information on it is not current, submit the updated details. If you are an adult citizen who is not registered to vote, please register before you contribute to our forum; it will indicate your seriousness about correctly understanding issues.  
+
These conditions are subject to change, depending on future abuse of this internet resource. I expect that requiring a real, checkable real name, not allowing an active link, especially, will turn off spammers. Honestly, 12,000 spam accounts during three unwatched months! My goal is to do good; theirs was not.
  
If you are an adult but not a citizen, please upload an image of an immigration form showing your name and address. “Noncitizen” will display after your name when you contribute.
+
===Uh, you can't post illegal stuff either===
  
If you are a child, please get your parents involved! They can quote you as part of their posts. For example they can write, “My 11-year-old says....
+
You won't care about these restrictions unless you are a criminal. The following is copied from [https://spreely.com/signup Spreely.com]'s legal page. Actually Spreely has a lot more big words, which I hope I never have to think about.  
  
==Why do we have to register with real names and party affiliation?==
+
Stuff you can't post:
  
Our goal is agreement among real people so that we may work together: not merely ''agreeing'' what corrections ought to be made and how they should be made, but ''making'' them. Consensus between anonymous faceless contributors is meaningless, to the extent action is the goal.
+
You aren't allowed to post anything that
  
Another reason anonymity will defeat our purpose is that this discussion desperately needs decency, clean language, and respect – if not for each other’s ''views'', at least for ''each other'' as human beings made in the Image of God whom God loves even if we can’t figure out why.  
+
- Is sexually explicit or pornographic, exploits or presents minors in a sexual way, or promotes adult sexual services.
  
In an anonymous blog you can spew heartless nonsense from the shadows of anonymity so that your friends, family, and coworkers will never learn this side of you and will continue to think you are normal. What you say here, you say publicly, with your real name.
+
- Creates a genuine risk of physical injury or property damage, credibly threatens people or public safety, or organizes, encourages or celebrates harm.
  
The “comments” sections of internet articles are dominated by anonymous “trolls” to whom relationship skills are The Enemy. They are divisive, profane, insulting, off the subject of the article, and they lie, misrepresenting even their own positions. They appear to be driven to shock rather than to elucidate.  
+
- Promotes self-harm, eating disorders or hard drug abuse.
  
Newspapers don’t publish anonymous letters to the editor. Before the internet, it was very difficult for people who wanted to publish their views anonymously to find an outlet. People with opinions were expected to take responsibility for them. Even when that may be a little bit costly. Names with opinions make them way more credible. One’s expertise or personal knowledge of a subject can be established only with a name. Your name on your positions also tells readers how committed you are to your positions. They see that you take them seriously, which makes them take you more seriously.
+
- Infringes anyone's intellectual property, privacy or other rights. (That is, you can't violate copyright laws.)
  
You can’t “take a stand” anonymously. People pay more attention to people who “take a stand” than to people who hide from accountability.
+
- Is fraudulent or deceptive.
If someone has information whose publication under his true name will get him killed, then by all means, he needs to be able to post anonymously. If that is your situation, you can surely find someone willing to post information for you in their name. But in this “land of the free, and home of the brave”, real danger is seldom anyone’s reason for posting anonymously.  
 
  
Wikipedia allows anonymous edits, which creates huge problems. Edits aren’t entirely anonymous; the numerical “IP address” of the web host used by the contributor is recorded, which is about as informative as knowing someone’s voter registration number but not their name. But in 2007 a tool was developed to match people with IP addresses, and Wikipedia found out that the groups making anonymous edits favorable to themselves included the CIA, the BBC, the Australian government, the National Republican Congressional Committee, and the Democratic National Campaign Committee. The BBC used anonymous edits to [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Wikipedia vandalize an article] about President G. W. Bush.  
+
- Is someone else's personal information or requests a minor's personal information.
  
==What does this forum do that others don’t?==
+
- Contains any information or content that’s illegal.
  
Here is an overview of other formats, showing their limitations in serving the need addressed by our Forum:
+
==What you CAN do==
  
'''Newspapers'''. Articles by staff reporters are featured. They are supposed to report both sides of issues, and usually they do at least call someone opposed to the positions they favor to get some quote from them.
+
You may freely submit any sincerely held, rationally presented political view, or politically relevant religious view. Our format allows you to disagree with anyone. This can stay fun to the extent disagreement remains respectful. Of course, others may likewise disagree with you, so you - your assumptions, patience, love, and emotional stability - may be challenged.
  
But reporters are unaccountable when they don’t explain the angle of the story, ignore the context of quotes, doctor the wording of quotes, ignore the evidence or reasoning given during an hour-long interview which they summarize in 50 words, or otherwise transform the positions of their ideological opponents into “straw men” - positions never taken by their opponents, but which they find much easier to ridicule even to fellow opponents of their views. An angle never hinted at during the hour-long, friendly, sympathetic interview.
+
You don’t ''have'' to make sense. That is, you won’t be banned for not backing up anything, or for disagreeing with everybody. However, if you contribute something so counterintuitive and lacking in backing that the question arises how you could possibly believe it yourself, and you ignore subsequent requests to better explain your idea, your contribution may be moved to a “Hit and run” or “abandoned” category.  
This format leaves a trail of destroyed reputations which reduce the ability of opponents of the newspaper’s favored positions to contribute to society for decades.  
 
  
Limited accountability is found in the “Opinion” page far from the front page. Anyone able to stuff “the rest of the story” into 200 words is welcome to submit, and some of the criticism will be printed. There is also a “corrections” box in tiny print, stuffed on any random page with a half inch to spare. This is a place for misspelled names or wrong dates, not a place to report distortions of a reporter.
+
Our purpose is to persuade people who used to disagree. We trust it is also your purpose to persuade, or at least to seem reasonably intelligent. So we offer several [[Tips]] you might want to think about even though following them is not “required” for you to participate. The goal of these [[tips]], which you are welcome to improve, is common sense relationship skills suggestions that will make you more persuasive in any situation. A related section discusses  Scriptures that back up those suggestions.  
It is this lack of accountability, enabling abuse of their monopoly on information, which has led to the dramatic decline of newspapers over the past half century as a growing segment of the population finds the facts they know unrepresented and distorted, so they find alternative news sources or create their own. This decline began before the internet and continues even as they have gone online.  
 
  
'''Blogs'''. Any individual may post his own articles or opinions on his own website. Unfortunately it is rare to find such a writer who even makes a show of contacting an ideological opponent to learn his view.  
+
'''Where you can contribute''' [[The Forum]] has a list of articles that have been started on this forum. Unlike newspaper and blog articles where you can add comments only beneath the articles, you can change these articles. '''You can correct mistakes, add information, and explain why you think an opinion is right or wrong.''' You can respond to a statement right by the statement, instead of at the end of the article.  
  
Accountability is limited to the “comments” below the article. Unfortunately the “comments” sections are dominated by anonymous “trolls” to whom relationship skills are The Enemy. They are divisive, profane, insulting, off the subject of the article, and they lie, misrepresenting their own positions, and apparently are driven to shock rather than elucidate.  
+
Or, if your response is not to any particular part of an article, but is general, you can still comment like you can in other blogs, on the comment page (called a "Discussion" page on this website). If you want to talk about a different subject, you can start a separate article.  
  
Some comment sections are “moderated”, meaning they are not posted until a moderator approves them. One problem with that is most websites can’t afford enough staff or attract enough volunteers for the job. A second problem is the difficulty of developing objective enough rules to distinguish between valuable ideas from borderline ideas and spam. This leads to the third problem: suspicion among readers that the moderator is only there to censor disagreement, so there is no use submitting a comment if you disagree.  
+
These rules were created especially for the kinds of issues that people care about so much that disagreement makes people emotional: especially political issues, and those issues where political positions are affected by religion, especially by the Bible. Other subjects are not welcome on this website at this time; this can change when at least one or two people with expertise in an area are willing to monitor contributions in that area to keep conversations honest and remove spam.  
  
The more fundamental problem is that few comments, even of those most acceptable, add to the information in the article. Most are only tangentally relevant to it. They typically consist more of reactions to each other than to the subject. And indeed, bloggers rarely express any interest in having their claims added to or corrected, which supports the suspicion that moderators might incline to censor such contributions.  
+
'''Sign your contributions!''' At the end of the section containing your contribution, enter your RealName, your political party abbreviation, your state abbreviation, a phrase about yourself, and the time and date. You can do this automatically by simply typing four "tildes". (You have to register with that information before you can post. "FAQ's", linked above, explain why this is important.)
  
Yet another problem, for the purposes addressed by PMF, is that comments are not organized by subject. You can’t look through a file of 500 comments and find the two or three that address a particular aspect of the subject. You can’t even search them, because the website displays only a few comments at a time, which take a little time to load because of the “avatars” (pictures by each name) and the ads.
+
A tilde is that little squiggle (~) in the upper left corner of your computer keyboard. On smartphones, on the "numbers" screen, there is a "symbol" symbol that is three characters squeezed into as much space as is elsewhere occupied by a single character . On android phones it is #\=. On iphones, it is #+=  Press this, and you get a tilde along with lots of other weird symbols.
These challenges face the comments section after articles in online newspapers, as well as after individuals’ blogs.
 
  
'''Think Tanks.''' “Think Tanks” are organizations which hire scholars to produce articles and research on a variety of topics. They fill the need to create much better researched information on current topics of public concern than is possible in 500 word newspaper articles or 300 word blogs, by researchers with university credentials on their topic unlike news reporters whose credentials are in reporting, which is kept continuously available as opposed to blogs and articles which are mostly forgotten after a few days.
+
At several points in these instructions
  
But if they are accountable to anybody for their errors, there is no transparency about it. Not all researchers even post contact information. Their organizations do, but if you contact them with a proposal or a correction there is no assurance that you will hear back from them, or if they do, that they will seriously consider your idea.
+
:<code>Can wisdom become, once again, as interesting as war?</code>
Wikipedia. Wikipedia is a remarkable forum that consistently turns up in the first page of search results if not in the top two or three results. It is a Think Tank with the resources to produce over 5 million articles as of January 2016, growing by 20,000 a month, and to keep them reasonably updated and perpetually available. By comparison, Encyclopedia Britannica has 40,000 articles in paper and 120,000 online. Microsoft’s Encarta has 70,000.
 
  
'''Wikipedia''' is the personification of accountability; anyone can correct its articles, and yet is in turn subject to others who may remove edits based on rather objective criteria. Yet none of this information or debate is forever deleted; a record of all edits, as well as deletions of edits with reasons given, is kept available, although they are organized only by date and not by subject.
+
==How to Format your Contribution==
  
There is no process for correcting errors or biases in encyclopedias which get past staff.
+
Formatting rules are posted at [[Begin!]]
  
The ad hominem attacks, irrelevance, self promotion, spam etc which plague comments sections is effectively dealt with by Wikipedia volunteers.  
+
==Personal Attacks vs. Criticism==
  
There will certainly be overlap between our articles and Wikipedia articles, and overlap between our rules and theirs.  
+
'''Definition: "Personal Attacks"''' are any cluster of words which (1) add little or no understanding of the arguments or facts of the subject of a dispute, and (2) focus attention on alleged flaws of the person talking to you, and (3) insinuate that those flaws justify ignoring the evidence being presented to you because the person talking to you is unworthy of your attention or because his credibility is so low that nothing he says can be taken seriously.  
  
But Wikipedia has limits which prevent it meeting the needs which PMF addresses.
+
"Personal attack" is a weapon against clear reasoning which has been described in many ways. It is very different than relevant, substantiated, respectful, evidence-based criticism. Personal attacks take attention ''away'' from any  evidence. They redirect attention away from whether a position is correct, to whether the person who holds it is good.  This wastes the time of readers interested in whether the position is correct.  
  
''Original thinking censored.'' Wikipedia does not allow original research, original ideas, or even original syntheses of published opinions or research. Our forum welcomes original thinking, because we want solutions.
+
The quintessential personal attack is an accusation of another's motives. How do you defend yourself when your accuser won't address your evidence or reasoning, but instead accounts for your conclusions by alleging sinister motives? You can back up reasoning and evidence. How do you prove the innocence of your motives? Paul, in Galatians 6:12, accused people responsible for much tyranny of being motivated by their own fear of persecution, but he did that after exhaustively addressing their scriptural and logical deficiency. But in general, he wrote in 1 Corinthians 4:5 that we need to hold off judging others' motives before God reveals what they are. And when He does He will reveal ours too.
  
Mainstream publishers must approve. Wikipedia accepts only references to opinions and facts published by “a published, reliable source”, even though Wikipedia acknowledges controversy about what sources are “reliable”. There is no consideration for the fact that the two sides of a controversy have different views about which sources are “reliable”. Its examples favor “mainstream”, “established” sources, which, on controversial political topics, lean liberal enough to have launched [www.conservapedia.com/Examples_of_Bias_in_Wikipedia “Conservapedia”.] Generally, “Most international and national newspapers, magazines, and scientific journals” are reliable, but “"Self-published books, personal Web sites, and blogs are largely not acceptable as sources." (Wikipedia:Verifiability)”
+
Here is a classical definition of "personal attacks", describing the error we want to avoid:
  
''Mythical “Neutrality”.'' Wikipedia requires the mythical “Neutral Point of View” (POV). Our forum does not honor neutrality on whether a claim or opinion is right or wrong. We want right to be vindicated and wrong to be put out of its misery.  
+
:"A personal attack is committed when a person substitutes abusive remarks for evidence when attacking another person's claim or claims. This line of "reasoning" is fallacious because the attack is directed at the person making the claim and not the claim itself. The truth value of a claim is independent of the person making the claim. After all, no matter how repugnant an individual might be, he or she can still make true claims.
  
''No new information.'' Wikipedia does not allow new information, or breaking news. Wikipedia actually says:
+
:"Not all ad Hominems are fallacious. In some cases, an individual's characteristics can have a bearing on the question of the veracity of her claims. For example, if someone is shown to be a pathological liar, then what he says can be considered to be unreliable. However, such attacks are weak, since even pathological liars might speak the truth on occasion.
  
<blockquote>Such content may well be true, but as far as Wikipedia's policies are concerned, true isn't enough. Information must be verifiable, which means it must be backed by a published source outside Wikipedia. Simply put, Wikipedia must never be the first place that news appears. If a tree falls in a forest and it's not reported elsewhere, then Wikipedia isn't going to report it either. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Wikipedia:_The_Missing_Manual/Editing,_creating,_and_maintaining_articles/Documenting_your_sources]</blockquote>
+
:"In general, it is best to focus one's attention on the content of the claim and not on who made the claim. It is the content that determines the truth of the claim and not the characteristics of the person making the claim." [http://www.nizkor.com/features/fallacies/personal-attack.html Nizkor.com]
  
''Nothing about yourself.'' You can’t write about yourself; not even in an article others have written about you that contains lies about you.
+
Wikipedia has a [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:No_personal_attacks long article] about personal attacks which warns us not to be simplistic:
  
<blockquote>We also tend to discourage authors from writing about themselves or their own accomplishments, as this is a [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest conflict of interest]. If you have notable accomplishments, someone else will write an article about you (eventually). [[Wikipedia:Autobiography]] has more detail on this.</blockquote>
+
:"Note that it is not a personal attack to question an editor at their talk page about their possible conflict of interest on a specific article or topic....Accusations about personal behavior that lack evidence. Serious accusations require serious evidence....Insulting or disparaging an editor is a personal attack regardless of the manner in which it is done....Attacks that are particularly offensive or disruptive (such as physical threats, legal threats, or blatantly racist or sexist insults) should not be ignored."
  
Consequently, you can’t link to evidence you have published elsewhere. Thus, the top world experts on a topic can’t contribute their expertise to Wikipedia’s articles edited by relative amateurs. This is probably the primary cause of a higher error rate in Wikipedia articles than in encyclopedias.  
+
Conclusions: Even when evaluating a person, there ought to be evidence; accusations ought never be brought without evidence. Therefore, if an argument is being made involving evidence against a person, any abandonment of that line of scrutiny to hit the person with some unsupported insult is the heart of what we mean by a "personal attack". Ironically it is ''not'' a "personal attack" to attack a person's credibility or character when that person's credibility or character is the subject, so long as the attack is based on carefully assembled evidence, even though an attack backed up by evidence is the most effective "attack" on the "person".  
  
It is Wikipedia’s goal of the mythical “neutral point of view” that creates the possibility of a “conflict of interest” in writing about your own research. Normally, in writing about themselves, people emphasize the good stuff and omit the bad, leaving a picture that is not “neutral”. Our forum values any contribution that is relevant, and the more expert it is, the better.  
+
"Insult" captures the heart of the error we mean to avoid. A carefully reasoned, well supported, reasonably stated criticism is not an "insult". That is the kind of analysis loving parents make, and in fact that is made often in the Bible about Bible heroes. An "insult" is a criticism lacking support, or that exaggerates what support it has, so that it is stated unfairly, if not completely unrelated to any fact at issue or to any productive measure of persons.  
  
''Complicated rules.'' Wikipedia reports criticism of the complexity of its rules. “It's harder and harder for new people to adjust.” “... the sheer complexity of the rules and laws governing content and editor behavior has become excessive and creates a learning burden for new editors.” “Wikipedia's rules have had the unintended effect of driving away new contributors to the site.” [See [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Wikipedia “Excessive rule making”.]
+
The Bible offers thorough guidance on how to reason respectfully with someone who disagrees. Productive communication includes love, patience, honesty, frankness, forgiveness. "Bereans" were a people called "noble" by God because rather than dismiss ideas just because they were radically different - what we today would call "politically unrealistic", they were willing to take a lot of time to investigate the claims. Acts 17:10-11.
  
However, the 4th “rule” in the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Simplified_ruleset “Simplified Rule Set”] is  
+
'''An insult to God.''' Personal attacks don't insult only their human target. Their logic is that the imperfection alleged in one's opponent leaves him too inferior to merit being listened to. The conceit that ''anyone'' is too inferior to merit being listened to is an insult to God. If there is a case where one is so far below another as to not merit being listened to by another, that is our case below God. To imagine that we are not far enough below God to lose our right to be heard by Him, but another human is far enough below us to lose his right to be heard by us, assumes that God is not as far above us as we are above another human. That is very insulting to God.
  
<blockquote>Ignore all rules (IAR): Rules on Wikipedia are not fixed in stone. The spirit of the rule trumps the letter of the rule. The common purpose of building an encyclopedia trumps both. This means that any rule can be broken for a very good reason, if it ultimately helps to improve the encyclopedia. It doesn't mean that anything can be done just by claiming IAR, or that discussion is not necessary to explain one's decision.</blockquote>
+
God listens to us. All of us. He even listens to ''Satan'' and answers some of ''his'' prayers (though with limits) according to Job 1! We ought to listen to each other.  
  
Nevertheless our forum has Wikipedia beat for simplicity. Our rules fit in a short paragraph. Our “tips” are completely optional; violation of them will not get your contributions deleted or reverted, as happens in Wikipedia: they are strictly for your benefit. They are principles that will help make you more persuasive in any situation where you are trying to reason with people who disagree.
+
Which doesn't mean that after we listen, we may never criticize what we hear!
 +
 
 +
'''When the person is the subject''' When the subject is the fitness of a political candidate, criticism of that person - backed up by evidence - is an appropriate part of evaluating him. However, criticism not backed up by evidence is slander - the enemy of a useful evaluation.
 +
 
 +
'''Credibility of a Witness''' When an argument turns on some fact witnessed by your opponent, his credibility as a witness becomes part of the argument. But if your opponent has documented the fact with evidence stronger than his own testimony, your scrutiny needs to be of that evidence; to draw attention away from that evidence to the credibility of your opponent is the kind of "personal attack" we need to stop.
 +
 
 +
'''If you are the subject of a personal attack''' (if you are debating someone who jumps from the issue to a list of your sins) you are authorized to <span style="color:#BFBFBF">grey out </span> the offending personal attack and to post, near it, the following notice:
 +
 
 +
<blockquote><span style="color:#0000FF">Alert: portions of this response have been greyed out because they are "personal attacks" which waste time for readers focused on facts and arguments. See [[Rules]]. For explanation, see [[Tips#No "personal attacks"]]. For a Biblical perspective, see [[Scripture about "no personal attacks – attack nonsense"]]</span></blockquote>
 +
 
 +
<nowiki><span style="color:#BFBFBF"></nowiki>This is the code to put in front of a personal attack. Text after it will turn grey. Where the text should return to black, insert <nowiki></span></nowiki> unless it is at a paragraph's end, which cancels the "grey" command already.
 +
 
 +
To copy the "Alert" from here to where there is a personal attack, click to "edit" this page and copy the paragraph that begins <nowiki><blockquote><span style="color:#0000FF"></nowiki>and ends with <nowiki></span></blockquote></nowiki>
 +
 
 +
(Only do it if you are very sure the matter is a true "personal attack". False accusations create another obstacle to reasoning that must be dealt with.)
 +
 
 +
(For more babbling about Personal Attacks: see [[Tips#No_.22personal_attacks.22]]
 +
 
 +
==Possible problems==
 +
 
 +
Above was our most objective rule. The considerations that follow will not even be noticed unless they are unusually egregious, and even then will not be dealt with administratively without public discussion on the "talk" page paired with the article with the problem. These violations are usually unintentional, not being governed by clear, objective laws or court cases.
 +
 
 +
'''Plagiarism or copyrighted material - legally prohibited.'''. No plagiarism: if you quote somebody, use quote marks and say who you are quoting - don't take credit as if you were the first to think of it; and even if you give credit, don’t copy and past large portions of copyrighted material. ''(Using less than 5% of a copyrighted book or article should be safe; using more than 20% can get you in court, if you are not criticizing it. By this principle if you are criticizing every detail of it, you should be allowed to quote all that you criticize, although courts have not said so. Websites of candidates should be public domain. It should always be safe to summarize an article and give a link to it.)''
 +
 
 +
'''No lying.''' No “Devil’s Advocates” without saying that is what you are doing. Don’t goad opponents in conversation by playing “Devil’s Advocate” by saying you believe what you don’t, making the errors in what you are saying a moving target for your opponents. A test of whether this is what you are doing is if you agree with a position at one point and dispute it in another, without clarifying the difference or admitting you have changed your mind.
 +
 
 +
==You are allowed to be funny.==
 +
 
 +
You are allowed to have fun. Humor used well can clarify an issue. Just keep it on the subject.
 +
 
 +
==Promotion of illegal activity.==
 +
Many website managers assert their right to censor any promotion of anything illegal, even though our laws and courts don't criminalize "incitement to violence" unless violence is actually inspired by the speech within a very short time. [https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/395/444/ Brandenburg v. Ohio, 395 U.S. 444 (1969)] It is possible that some post here might rise to a level of such gratuitous incitement that it should be banned here, subject to public discussion on the talk page, so that possibility is listed here.
 +
 
 +
But this wiki focuses on politically related issues. All political issues involve questions about what should be legal. Every position taken on what ''should'' be legal is literally a promotion of things that are ''not already'' legal. This makes a simplistic prohibition of "the promotion of illegal activity" technically meaningless if not ridiculous in any political forum.
 +
 
 +
This is complicated by conflicts that often occur between laws; such as between local and federal laws. Sometimes what is legal under one jurisdiction is outlawed in another. For example we often see law-abiding people violate what they consider an unjust, unconstitutional law in order to "test" the law in court. Sometimes we even see elected officials going to jail for upholding the Constitution as they understand it, while arguing in court that it is the court orders which are unconstitutional. This is actually a correct procedure for correcting incorrect laws, that is provided by our legal system, since courts will not review the constitutionality of a law unless there is a "case" before it, and a "case" has to have a defendant accused of violating a law or a plaintiff claiming to be harmed by a law.
 +
 
 +
Serious, passionate disagreement about which policies are right and wrong are usually stirred by perceived conflicts between human laws and God's Laws. Ideas about the right thing to do in that situation are all over the map. These disagreements can't be resolved without discussing not only what the law ought to be, but how we ought to respond until it is. In that situation it is uselessly simplistic to attempt to identify "promotion of illegal activity", since the central disagreement is over what is genuinely legal. When a law or court order conflicts with the Constitution, and/or with the Bible, which is legal? Is it then "promotion of illegal activity", to argue for the other side?
 +
 
 +
How about when some judge takes a position that defies the Constitution, local and federal laws, all court precedent, and the Bible, but he still has the power to order the police to put you in jail? Are you allowed to present legal arguments for your innocence? Defending yourself either in court or in the court of public opinion would be "promotion of illegal activity" by the simplistic notion of "promotion of illegal activity" which the rules on several websites authorize administrators to arbitrarily censor. Martin Luther King Jr. continually "promoted illegal activity", these administrators would all have said had they started their websites a couple of generations earlier.
 +
 
 +
However, there is a kind of "promotion of illegal activity" which we don't need in this forum. An example might be the book "Hit Man", published by Paladin, which tells how to murder somebody. Even after the book was followed carefully by one of its readers to commit a double murder, our courts took no criminal action against its publication, and a [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paladin_Press lawsuit] over it was settled out of court in 2002. That is an example of gratuitous "promotion of illegal activity" unrelated to any "higher law" or to effect any change that anyone would want in our laws. Therefore it would be irrelevant to this forum not only because it is reprehensible, but because it is unrelated to any political purpose. 
 +
 
 +
Islam is a knottier question. The Koran proudly promotes a way of life which is profoundly criminal by the standards of American law. And yet as an increasingly popular religion, who is ready to censor any favorable reference to it on the ground that it promotes illegal activity? Plainly, the appropriate response to Islam is going to be a lot of discussion - a lot of getting Americans on the "same page". This is not a challenge which is going to go away by censoring discussion of it. And of course the Koran's precepts, called Sharia Law, lapping at the edges of American law, determined to utterly displace American law, makes it profoundly related to every political purpose.

Latest revision as of 11:11, 24 June 2021

Forum (Articles) Offer Partners Rules Tips SaveTheWorld:FAQ Begin! Donate

What you CAN'T do is what you wouldn't do anyway

Rules (that are conditions of participation) are simple and short:

Nothing irrelevant allowed! Profanity, advertisements*, or other spam will get you instantly banned. Personal attacks (as opposed to relevant "criticism") will be deleted and you will receive a warning, or the attack portion may be greyed, if they seem marginally relevant to the discussion; if they seem mean or gratuitous, and are the whole substance of your content, you will be banned. Contributions only marginally on the subject of an article or a subheading will be deleted. Or perhaps moved if an editor finds a place where they are appropriate. The only time it is relevant to attack the character or qualifications of a person rather than the merits of an issue is when the person is the issue: for example he is a candidate for public office. But even then, unsupported criticism is a "personal attack".

That's about all that you can't do.

  • Actually we will allow a bit of advertising, in your personal page, because we would like to know about your business as well as your political life. But after dealing with about 12,000 incoherent spam posts that existed only for a link, here are some rules:

<> Your link must be to a legitimate product or service that you personally provide.

<> You may not advertise a business based on fraud, lust, greed, or spam. Your business must be one which serves others, as opposed to deceiving others or tempting others to sin.

<> You may give the text of a link, but you may not activate it.

<> You may describe your service with up to 100 words, provided they make sense and are informative and interesting, as opposed to spam which is incoherent.

<> You may not advertise anything at all if you are here only to advertise and not to join the political conversation. If you do that, your entire account will be deleted and you will be blocked from reapplying. However, provided your political posts are thoughtful and sensible (whether or not they agree with anyone) you are welcome to post up to 100 words advertising your service, provided you have posted at least that much on political topics.

These conditions are subject to change, depending on future abuse of this internet resource. I expect that requiring a real, checkable real name, not allowing an active link, especially, will turn off spammers. Honestly, 12,000 spam accounts during three unwatched months! My goal is to do good; theirs was not.

Uh, you can't post illegal stuff either

You won't care about these restrictions unless you are a criminal. The following is copied from Spreely.com's legal page. Actually Spreely has a lot more big words, which I hope I never have to think about.

Stuff you can't post:

You aren't allowed to post anything that

- Is sexually explicit or pornographic, exploits or presents minors in a sexual way, or promotes adult sexual services.

- Creates a genuine risk of physical injury or property damage, credibly threatens people or public safety, or organizes, encourages or celebrates harm.

- Promotes self-harm, eating disorders or hard drug abuse.

- Infringes anyone's intellectual property, privacy or other rights. (That is, you can't violate copyright laws.)

- Is fraudulent or deceptive.

- Is someone else's personal information or requests a minor's personal information.

- Contains any information or content that’s illegal.

What you CAN do

You may freely submit any sincerely held, rationally presented political view, or politically relevant religious view. Our format allows you to disagree with anyone. This can stay fun to the extent disagreement remains respectful. Of course, others may likewise disagree with you, so you - your assumptions, patience, love, and emotional stability - may be challenged.

You don’t have to make sense. That is, you won’t be banned for not backing up anything, or for disagreeing with everybody. However, if you contribute something so counterintuitive and lacking in backing that the question arises how you could possibly believe it yourself, and you ignore subsequent requests to better explain your idea, your contribution may be moved to a “Hit and run” or “abandoned” category.

Our purpose is to persuade people who used to disagree. We trust it is also your purpose to persuade, or at least to seem reasonably intelligent. So we offer several Tips you might want to think about even though following them is not “required” for you to participate. The goal of these tips, which you are welcome to improve, is common sense relationship skills suggestions that will make you more persuasive in any situation. A related section discusses Scriptures that back up those suggestions.

Where you can contribute The Forum has a list of articles that have been started on this forum. Unlike newspaper and blog articles where you can add comments only beneath the articles, you can change these articles. You can correct mistakes, add information, and explain why you think an opinion is right or wrong. You can respond to a statement right by the statement, instead of at the end of the article.

Or, if your response is not to any particular part of an article, but is general, you can still comment like you can in other blogs, on the comment page (called a "Discussion" page on this website). If you want to talk about a different subject, you can start a separate article.

These rules were created especially for the kinds of issues that people care about so much that disagreement makes people emotional: especially political issues, and those issues where political positions are affected by religion, especially by the Bible. Other subjects are not welcome on this website at this time; this can change when at least one or two people with expertise in an area are willing to monitor contributions in that area to keep conversations honest and remove spam.

Sign your contributions! At the end of the section containing your contribution, enter your RealName, your political party abbreviation, your state abbreviation, a phrase about yourself, and the time and date. You can do this automatically by simply typing four "tildes". (You have to register with that information before you can post. "FAQ's", linked above, explain why this is important.)

A tilde is that little squiggle (~) in the upper left corner of your computer keyboard. On smartphones, on the "numbers" screen, there is a "symbol" symbol that is three characters squeezed into as much space as is elsewhere occupied by a single character . On android phones it is #\=. On iphones, it is #+= Press this, and you get a tilde along with lots of other weird symbols.

At several points in these instructions

Can wisdom become, once again, as interesting as war?

How to Format your Contribution

Formatting rules are posted at Begin!

Personal Attacks vs. Criticism

Definition: "Personal Attacks" are any cluster of words which (1) add little or no understanding of the arguments or facts of the subject of a dispute, and (2) focus attention on alleged flaws of the person talking to you, and (3) insinuate that those flaws justify ignoring the evidence being presented to you because the person talking to you is unworthy of your attention or because his credibility is so low that nothing he says can be taken seriously.

"Personal attack" is a weapon against clear reasoning which has been described in many ways. It is very different than relevant, substantiated, respectful, evidence-based criticism. Personal attacks take attention away from any evidence. They redirect attention away from whether a position is correct, to whether the person who holds it is good. This wastes the time of readers interested in whether the position is correct.

The quintessential personal attack is an accusation of another's motives. How do you defend yourself when your accuser won't address your evidence or reasoning, but instead accounts for your conclusions by alleging sinister motives? You can back up reasoning and evidence. How do you prove the innocence of your motives? Paul, in Galatians 6:12, accused people responsible for much tyranny of being motivated by their own fear of persecution, but he did that after exhaustively addressing their scriptural and logical deficiency. But in general, he wrote in 1 Corinthians 4:5 that we need to hold off judging others' motives before God reveals what they are. And when He does He will reveal ours too.

Here is a classical definition of "personal attacks", describing the error we want to avoid:

"A personal attack is committed when a person substitutes abusive remarks for evidence when attacking another person's claim or claims. This line of "reasoning" is fallacious because the attack is directed at the person making the claim and not the claim itself. The truth value of a claim is independent of the person making the claim. After all, no matter how repugnant an individual might be, he or she can still make true claims.
"Not all ad Hominems are fallacious. In some cases, an individual's characteristics can have a bearing on the question of the veracity of her claims. For example, if someone is shown to be a pathological liar, then what he says can be considered to be unreliable. However, such attacks are weak, since even pathological liars might speak the truth on occasion.
"In general, it is best to focus one's attention on the content of the claim and not on who made the claim. It is the content that determines the truth of the claim and not the characteristics of the person making the claim." Nizkor.com

Wikipedia has a long article about personal attacks which warns us not to be simplistic:

"Note that it is not a personal attack to question an editor at their talk page about their possible conflict of interest on a specific article or topic....Accusations about personal behavior that lack evidence. Serious accusations require serious evidence....Insulting or disparaging an editor is a personal attack regardless of the manner in which it is done....Attacks that are particularly offensive or disruptive (such as physical threats, legal threats, or blatantly racist or sexist insults) should not be ignored."

Conclusions: Even when evaluating a person, there ought to be evidence; accusations ought never be brought without evidence. Therefore, if an argument is being made involving evidence against a person, any abandonment of that line of scrutiny to hit the person with some unsupported insult is the heart of what we mean by a "personal attack". Ironically it is not a "personal attack" to attack a person's credibility or character when that person's credibility or character is the subject, so long as the attack is based on carefully assembled evidence, even though an attack backed up by evidence is the most effective "attack" on the "person".

"Insult" captures the heart of the error we mean to avoid. A carefully reasoned, well supported, reasonably stated criticism is not an "insult". That is the kind of analysis loving parents make, and in fact that is made often in the Bible about Bible heroes. An "insult" is a criticism lacking support, or that exaggerates what support it has, so that it is stated unfairly, if not completely unrelated to any fact at issue or to any productive measure of persons.

The Bible offers thorough guidance on how to reason respectfully with someone who disagrees. Productive communication includes love, patience, honesty, frankness, forgiveness. "Bereans" were a people called "noble" by God because rather than dismiss ideas just because they were radically different - what we today would call "politically unrealistic", they were willing to take a lot of time to investigate the claims. Acts 17:10-11.

An insult to God. Personal attacks don't insult only their human target. Their logic is that the imperfection alleged in one's opponent leaves him too inferior to merit being listened to. The conceit that anyone is too inferior to merit being listened to is an insult to God. If there is a case where one is so far below another as to not merit being listened to by another, that is our case below God. To imagine that we are not far enough below God to lose our right to be heard by Him, but another human is far enough below us to lose his right to be heard by us, assumes that God is not as far above us as we are above another human. That is very insulting to God.

God listens to us. All of us. He even listens to Satan and answers some of his prayers (though with limits) according to Job 1! We ought to listen to each other.

Which doesn't mean that after we listen, we may never criticize what we hear!

When the person is the subject When the subject is the fitness of a political candidate, criticism of that person - backed up by evidence - is an appropriate part of evaluating him. However, criticism not backed up by evidence is slander - the enemy of a useful evaluation.

Credibility of a Witness When an argument turns on some fact witnessed by your opponent, his credibility as a witness becomes part of the argument. But if your opponent has documented the fact with evidence stronger than his own testimony, your scrutiny needs to be of that evidence; to draw attention away from that evidence to the credibility of your opponent is the kind of "personal attack" we need to stop.

If you are the subject of a personal attack (if you are debating someone who jumps from the issue to a list of your sins) you are authorized to grey out the offending personal attack and to post, near it, the following notice:

Alert: portions of this response have been greyed out because they are "personal attacks" which waste time for readers focused on facts and arguments. See Rules. For explanation, see Tips#No "personal attacks". For a Biblical perspective, see Scripture about "no personal attacks – attack nonsense"

<span style="color:#BFBFBF">This is the code to put in front of a personal attack. Text after it will turn grey. Where the text should return to black, insert </span> unless it is at a paragraph's end, which cancels the "grey" command already.

To copy the "Alert" from here to where there is a personal attack, click to "edit" this page and copy the paragraph that begins <blockquote><span style="color:#0000FF">and ends with </span></blockquote>

(Only do it if you are very sure the matter is a true "personal attack". False accusations create another obstacle to reasoning that must be dealt with.)

(For more babbling about Personal Attacks: see Tips#No_.22personal_attacks.22

Possible problems

Above was our most objective rule. The considerations that follow will not even be noticed unless they are unusually egregious, and even then will not be dealt with administratively without public discussion on the "talk" page paired with the article with the problem. These violations are usually unintentional, not being governed by clear, objective laws or court cases.

Plagiarism or copyrighted material - legally prohibited.. No plagiarism: if you quote somebody, use quote marks and say who you are quoting - don't take credit as if you were the first to think of it; and even if you give credit, don’t copy and past large portions of copyrighted material. (Using less than 5% of a copyrighted book or article should be safe; using more than 20% can get you in court, if you are not criticizing it. By this principle if you are criticizing every detail of it, you should be allowed to quote all that you criticize, although courts have not said so. Websites of candidates should be public domain. It should always be safe to summarize an article and give a link to it.)

No lying. No “Devil’s Advocates” without saying that is what you are doing. Don’t goad opponents in conversation by playing “Devil’s Advocate” by saying you believe what you don’t, making the errors in what you are saying a moving target for your opponents. A test of whether this is what you are doing is if you agree with a position at one point and dispute it in another, without clarifying the difference or admitting you have changed your mind.

You are allowed to be funny.

You are allowed to have fun. Humor used well can clarify an issue. Just keep it on the subject.

Promotion of illegal activity.

Many website managers assert their right to censor any promotion of anything illegal, even though our laws and courts don't criminalize "incitement to violence" unless violence is actually inspired by the speech within a very short time. Brandenburg v. Ohio, 395 U.S. 444 (1969) It is possible that some post here might rise to a level of such gratuitous incitement that it should be banned here, subject to public discussion on the talk page, so that possibility is listed here.

But this wiki focuses on politically related issues. All political issues involve questions about what should be legal. Every position taken on what should be legal is literally a promotion of things that are not already legal. This makes a simplistic prohibition of "the promotion of illegal activity" technically meaningless if not ridiculous in any political forum.

This is complicated by conflicts that often occur between laws; such as between local and federal laws. Sometimes what is legal under one jurisdiction is outlawed in another. For example we often see law-abiding people violate what they consider an unjust, unconstitutional law in order to "test" the law in court. Sometimes we even see elected officials going to jail for upholding the Constitution as they understand it, while arguing in court that it is the court orders which are unconstitutional. This is actually a correct procedure for correcting incorrect laws, that is provided by our legal system, since courts will not review the constitutionality of a law unless there is a "case" before it, and a "case" has to have a defendant accused of violating a law or a plaintiff claiming to be harmed by a law.

Serious, passionate disagreement about which policies are right and wrong are usually stirred by perceived conflicts between human laws and God's Laws. Ideas about the right thing to do in that situation are all over the map. These disagreements can't be resolved without discussing not only what the law ought to be, but how we ought to respond until it is. In that situation it is uselessly simplistic to attempt to identify "promotion of illegal activity", since the central disagreement is over what is genuinely legal. When a law or court order conflicts with the Constitution, and/or with the Bible, which is legal? Is it then "promotion of illegal activity", to argue for the other side?

How about when some judge takes a position that defies the Constitution, local and federal laws, all court precedent, and the Bible, but he still has the power to order the police to put you in jail? Are you allowed to present legal arguments for your innocence? Defending yourself either in court or in the court of public opinion would be "promotion of illegal activity" by the simplistic notion of "promotion of illegal activity" which the rules on several websites authorize administrators to arbitrarily censor. Martin Luther King Jr. continually "promoted illegal activity", these administrators would all have said had they started their websites a couple of generations earlier.

However, there is a kind of "promotion of illegal activity" which we don't need in this forum. An example might be the book "Hit Man", published by Paladin, which tells how to murder somebody. Even after the book was followed carefully by one of its readers to commit a double murder, our courts took no criminal action against its publication, and a lawsuit over it was settled out of court in 2002. That is an example of gratuitous "promotion of illegal activity" unrelated to any "higher law" or to effect any change that anyone would want in our laws. Therefore it would be irrelevant to this forum not only because it is reprehensible, but because it is unrelated to any political purpose.

Islam is a knottier question. The Koran proudly promotes a way of life which is profoundly criminal by the standards of American law. And yet as an increasingly popular religion, who is ready to censor any favorable reference to it on the ground that it promotes illegal activity? Plainly, the appropriate response to Islam is going to be a lot of discussion - a lot of getting Americans on the "same page". This is not a challenge which is going to go away by censoring discussion of it. And of course the Koran's precepts, called Sharia Law, lapping at the edges of American law, determined to utterly displace American law, makes it profoundly related to every political purpose.