Part Four: Congregation/Congress v. “Church” - Revision history

DaveLeach: /* 2020 */

2022-05-02T14:31:28Z

‎2020

DaveLeach at 01:54, 2 March 2020

2020-03-02T01:54:04Z

DaveLeach: /* 2020 */

2020-03-01T05:43:24Z

‎2020

DaveLeach: /* Review */

2020-02-24T00:39:54Z

‎Review

DaveLeach: /* Review */

2020-02-23T06:38:02Z

‎Review

DaveLeach: /* English Translations of εκκλεσια */

2020-02-23T06:14:16Z

‎English Translations of εκκλεσια

DaveLeach: /* English Translations of εκκλεσια */

2020-02-23T05:46:02Z

‎English Translations of εκκλεσια

DaveLeach: /* English Translations of εκκλεσια */

2020-02-23T05:40:09Z

‎English Translations of εκκλεσια

DaveLeach: /* English Translations of εκκλεσια */

2020-02-23T05:37:13Z

‎English Translations of εκκλεσια

DaveLeach: /* 1604 */

2020-02-23T05:25:40Z

‎1604

@@ Line 154: / Line 154: @@
 Would “congregation” have had any religious connotation at all, had Tyndale not used the word in his 1526 translation?
-<blockquote style="background: pink;
+<blockquote style="background: pink; border: 9px solid rgb(153, 153, 153)">People familiar with Greek literature knew it described the political gatherings in which all the free citizens resolved community matters and chose their political leaders. They knew it described forums that were not dominated by a single speaker, like “worship services” today, but which were apparently as wide open to input from anyone as 1 Corinthians 14 says Christian meetings should be. They knew talking or teaching was not the primary purpose of such meetings at all, as in church services today, but rather well informed decisions about actions which the whole assembly would support, about how the people wanted to be governed, and what actions they wanted their community to take together.</blockquote>
 <blockquote>'''Vincent’s Word Studies''': (on Matthew 16:18) [εκκλησιαν is a combination of two words:] εκ out, and καλέω, to call or summon . This is the first occurrence of this word in the New Testament. Originally [in Greek literature the word meant] an assembly of citizens, regularly summoned. So [it is used in] Acts 19:39 [where a violent mob is contrasted with a “lawful assembly” which could lawfully judge the accused missionaries]. </blockquote>

@@ Line 22: / Line 22: @@
 Only one rule dictated how a certain Greek word had to be translated. Only one word mattered that much to the king, to force England’s top Greek scholars to translate one particular Greek word not according to its meaning but as the King demanded.
-That English word was “church”. That was the royal translation of the Greek word “ekklesia” (εκκλεσιαν).
+That English word was “church”. That was the royal translation of the Greek word “ekklesia” (εκκλησιαν).
 Here is the text of the royal decree: “3. The old ecclesiastical words to be kept; as the word church, not to be translated congregation, &c.”
@@ Line 28: / Line 28: @@
 Who had translated it “congregation”? What happened to the guy who translated it “congregation”? What is the big difference between “church” and “congregation” that the king made such a big deal out of it?
-Thank you for asking. William Tyndale translated the word εκκλεσιαν as “congregation”. For translating the New Testament into English, he was strangled and then burned at the stake. Although he was murdered for translating more than one word, King James’ focus on that one word suggests that one word very likely rankled his predecessor, King James’ great grand-uncle, King Henry VIII, similarly.
+Thank you for asking. William Tyndale translated the word εκκλησιαν as “congregation”. For translating the New Testament into English, he was strangled and then burned at the stake. Although he was murdered for translating more than one word, King James’ focus on that one word suggests that one word very likely rankled his predecessor, King James’ great grand-uncle, King Henry VIII, similarly.
 The big difference? James called “church” an “ecclesiastical word”. “Ecclesiastical” refers to a very regimented church structure, with rich uniforms and elaborate rituals. King James wanted his Bible to support that. Why?
@@ Line 167: / Line 167: @@
 wanted their community to take together. </pre></blockquote>
-<blockquote>'''Vincent’s Word Studies''': (on Matthew 16:18) [εκκλεσιαν is a combination of two words:] εκ out, and καλέω, to call or summon . This is the first occurrence of this word in the New Testament. Originally [in Greek literature the word meant] an assembly of citizens, regularly summoned. So [it is used in] Acts 19:39 [where a violent mob is contrasted with a “lawful assembly” which could lawfully judge the accused missionaries]. </blockquote>
+<blockquote>'''Vincent’s Word Studies''': (on Matthew 16:18) [εκκλησιαν is a combination of two words:] εκ out, and καλέω, to call or summon . This is the first occurrence of this word in the New Testament. Originally [in Greek literature the word meant] an assembly of citizens, regularly summoned. So [it is used in] Acts 19:39 [where a violent mob is contrasted with a “lawful assembly” which could lawfully judge the accused missionaries]. </blockquote>
 <blockquote>Acts 19:38 [The town clerk, trying to calm the mob, said] Wherefore if Demetrius, and the craftsmen which are with him, have a matter against any man, the law is open, and there are deputies: let them implead one another. 39 But if ye enquire any thing concerning other matters, it shall be determined in a lawful '''assembly'''. 40 For we are in danger to be called in question for this day's uproar, there being no cause whereby we may give an account of this concourse. 41 And when he had thus spoken, he dismissed the '''assembly'''.</blockquote>
-Acts 19 is the only place where εκκλεσιαν is translated “assembly” in the KJV. King James had specifically ordered his translators to render εκκλεσιαν as “church”, which they faithfully did through the rest of the New Testament. But they couldn’t here without making the king’s subjects suspicious. In Acts 19, God clearly fits the word to a gathering where decisions are established and action taken. It was as far as a group could get from sitting quietly without interrupting to hear someone give a sermon. The King’s subjects did not need to know that the word reaches that far from “church” as King James had defined it.
+Acts 19 is the only place where εκκλησιαν is translated “assembly” in the KJV. King James had specifically ordered his translators to render εκκλησιαν as “church”, which they faithfully did through the rest of the New Testament. But they couldn’t here without making the king’s subjects suspicious. In Acts 19, God clearly fits the word to a gathering where decisions are established and action taken. It was as far as a group could get from sitting quietly without interrupting to hear someone give a sermon. The King’s subjects did not need to know that the word reaches that far from “church” as King James had defined it.
-Vincent’s reviews many verses in the Septuagint (Greek translation of the Old Testament) with the word  εκκλεσιαν. In 1 Kings 8:65 it means all Israel “congregated” to dedicate the Temple. In Genesis 28:3 Isaac’s blessing for Jacob is that his descendants would become a great εκκλεσιαν, meaning nation, although the underlying meaning is a nation united in the name of God. That is the meaning also in Acts 7:38 where the whole εκκλεσιαν of Israel was in the desert with Moses; KJV translates it “church” in that verse.
+Vincent’s reviews many verses in the Septuagint (Greek translation of the Old Testament) with the word  εκκλησιαν. In 1 Kings 8:65 it means all Israel “congregated” to dedicate the Temple. In Genesis 28:3 Isaac’s blessing for Jacob is that his descendants would become a great εκκλησιαν, meaning nation, although the underlying meaning is a nation united in the name of God. That is the meaning also in Acts 7:38 where the whole εκκλησιαν of Israel was in the desert with Moses; KJV translates it “church” in that verse.
 <blockquote>Vincent’s: Both in Hebrew and in New Testament usage εκκλησία implies more than a collective or national unity; rather a community based on a special religious idea and established in a special way. </blockquote>
-Greek scholars in King James’ time knew the difference between  εκκλεσιαν and “church”.
+Greek scholars in King James’ time knew the difference between  εκκλησιαν and “church”.
-==English Translations of εκκλεσια==
+==English Translations of εκκλησια==
 Miles Coverdale, relying much on Tyndale, repeated “congregation” in his translation, also called The Great Bible, being the first translation of the whole Bible – the Old as well as New  Testaments. (Tyndale could not finish translating the Old Testament before he was strangled and burned at the stake for publishing the New.)
@@ Line 231: / Line 231: @@
 '''Part Three''' presented Bible evidence of the vigorous political involvement God asks of us. We are designed to be as heavily involved in human relationships as God meant them, between government and citizens, as we should be between husbands and wives, parents and children, employers and employees, church elders and church members, and all of us between each other. Although our political tools are the opposite of Satan's - freedom vs. tyranny, ideas vs. guns, etc., we are very engaged where Satan is attacking, and even when Satan kills us, he can't stop us, by the power of Jesus Christ.
-'''Part Four''', this part, is about the history of the word “church” in Bible translation, showing that “congregation”, Tyndale's translation of εκκλεσιαν, is quite different than the “church” which King James ruled, and indeed than churches in America today. The very word, in Greek, describes a Greek assembly of free men in an open forum making decisions critical to their society, not to listen to a teaching. “Congregation” no longer expresses how different church is from what Jesus said he was starting to build, because it has come to mean nearly the same as “church”; however a word very closely related to “congregation” – a form of the same word – is much closer in meaning to what “congregation” meant then, and to what εκκλεσιαν were: '''CONGRESS'''.
+'''Part Four''', this part, is about the history of the word “church” in Bible translation, showing that “congregation”, Tyndale's translation of εκκλησιαν, is quite different than the “church” which King James ruled, and indeed than churches in America today. The very word, in Greek, describes a Greek assembly of free men in an open forum making decisions critical to their society, not to listen to a teaching. “Congregation” no longer expresses how different church is from what Jesus said he was starting to build, because it has come to mean nearly the same as “church”; however a word very closely related to “congregation” – a form of the same word – is much closer in meaning to what “congregation” meant then, and to what εκκλησιαν were: '''CONGRESS'''.
 '''Part Five,''' next, is a Bible study with more detail about this thing that Jesus has been building that is very different than what "church" has become. Part Four's picture of this new magnificent edifice Jesus is building was based on only the meaning of the Greek word, and the royal fuss made over rendering it as something else than "church". Part Five will cover several Scriptures which make this point directly and emphatically.

@@ Line 166: / Line 166: @@
 would support, about how the people wanted to be governed, and what actions they
 wanted their community to take together. </pre></blockquote>
 ==English Translations of εκκλεσια==

@@ Line 219: / Line 219: @@
 '''Part Three''' presented Bible evidence of the vigorous political involvement God asks of us. We are designed to be as heavily involved in human relationships as God meant them, between government and citizens, as we should be between husbands and wives, parents and children, employers and employees, church elders and church members, and all of us between each other. Although our political tools are the opposite of Satan's - freedom vs. tyranny, ideas vs. guns, etc., we are very engaged where Satan is attacking, and even when Satan kills us, he can't stop us, by the power of Jesus Christ.
-'''Part Four''', this part, is about the history of the word "church" in Bible translation, showing that "congregation", Tyndale's translation of εκκλεσιαν, is quite different than the "church" which King James ruled, and indeed than churches in America today. The very word, in Greek, describes a Greek assembly of free men in an open forum making decisions critical to their society, not to listen to a teaching. "Congregation" no longer expresses how different church is from what Jesus said he was starting to build, because it has come to mean nearly the same as "church"; however a word very closely related to "congregation" - a form of the same word - is much closer in meaning to what "congregation" meant then, and to what εκκλεσιαν were: '''CONGRESS'''.
+'''Part Four''', this part, is about the history of the word “church” in Bible translation, showing that “congregation”, Tyndale's translation of εκκλεσιαν, is quite different than the “church” which King James ruled, and indeed than churches in America today. The very word, in Greek, describes a Greek assembly of free men in an open forum making decisions critical to their society, not to listen to a teaching. “Congregation” no longer expresses how different church is from what Jesus said he was starting to build, because it has come to mean nearly the same as “church”; however a word very closely related to “congregation” – a form of the same word – is much closer in meaning to what “congregation” meant then, and to what εκκλεσιαν were: '''CONGRESS'''.
 '''Part Five,''' next, is a Bible study with more detail about this thing that Jesus has been building that is very different than what "church" has become. Part Four's picture of this new magnificent edifice Jesus is building was based on only the meaning of the Greek word, and the royal fuss made over rendering it as something else than "church". Part Five will cover several Scriptures which make this point directly and emphatically.

@@ Line 221: / Line 221: @@
 '''Part Four''', this part, is about the history of the word "church" in Bible translation, showing that "congregation", Tyndale's translation of εκκλεσιαν, is quite different than the "church" which King James ruled, and indeed than churches in America today. The very word, in Greek, describes a Greek assembly of free men in an open forum making decisions critical to their society, not to listen to a teaching. "Congregation" no longer expresses how different church is from what Jesus said he was starting to build, because it has come to mean nearly the same as "church"; however a word very closely related to "congregation" - a form of the same word - is much closer in meaning to what "congregation" meant then, and to what εκκλεσιαν were: '''CONGRESS'''.
-'''Part Five,''' next, is a Bible study with more detail about this thing that Jesus has been building that is very different than what "church" has become.
+'''Part Five,''' next, is a Bible study with more detail about this thing that Jesus has been building that is very different than what "church" has become. Part Four's picture of this new magnificent edifice Jesus is building was based on only the meaning of the Greek word, and the royal fuss made over rendering it as something else than "church". Part Five will cover several Scriptures which make this point directly and emphatically.
 (Story continues at [[Part Five: The Congress of Living Stones]])
 (Return to Part One)

← Older revision		Revision as of 05:46, 23 February 2020
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	A fourth of the world has fallen under Islamic tyranny (compare with Revelation 6:8 – a “green” horse according to CEV, ISV, JUB, TLV, and TS2009 translations – the color which Islam chooses to represent itself) for over half the time between Jesus and today, and under Communist tyranny for a century, with the consent of a surprising number of people under those tyrannies; but that is progress compared to 2,000 years ago when tyranny was the ''only'' form of government. (Notwithstanding Athenian “democracy” which, at its height, have a voice to 20% of the men.)		A fourth of the world has fallen under Islamic tyranny (compare with Revelation 6:8 – a “green” horse according to CEV, ISV, JUB, TLV, and TS2009 translations – the color which Islam chooses to represent itself) for over half the time between Jesus and today, and under Communist tyranny for a century, with the consent of a surprising number of people under those tyrannies; but that is progress compared to 2,000 years ago when tyranny was the ''only'' form of government. (Notwithstanding Athenian “democracy” which, at its height, have a voice to 20% of the men.)
		+
		+	(Story continues at [[Part Five: The Congress of Living Stones]])
		+
		+	(Return to Part One)

@@ Line 199: / Line 199: @@
 '''The Geneva translation of 1560 and 1599''', the one English translation not produced by  English citizens living in England although some of its authors had fled England’s ruthless rule under Queen (“Bloody”) Mary, translated “church” in this verse.
-Church: the very Name was Controversial. “Tyndale deliberately decided not to translate the Greek word ekklesia as ‘church’. Jesus had used ekklesia to describe the community of followers that he was going to leave behind him. Thanks to Renaissance philologists, Tyndale knew that the word had originally meant a democratic ‘assembly’ or ‘congregation’. In the words of twentieth-century theologian William Barcley.” (The Book that Made Your World, by Vishal Mangalwadi, [Thomas Nelson, 2011] p. 151.)
+<blockquote>Church: the very Name was Controversial. “Tyndale deliberately decided not to translate the Greek word ekklesia as ‘church’. Jesus had used ekklesia to describe the community of followers that he was going to leave behind him. Thanks to Renaissance philologists, Tyndale knew that the word had originally meant a democratic ‘assembly’ or ‘congregation’. In the words of twentieth-century theologian William Barcley.” (The Book that Made Your World, by Vishal Mangalwadi, [Thomas Nelson, 2011] p. 151.) </blockquote>
-“The ekklesia was the convened assembly of the people [in Greek city-states]. It consisted of all the citizens of the city who had not lost their civic rights. [Ed: actually that was only about 20% of the men, and none of the women. 80% were slaves.] Apart from the fact that its decisions must conform to the laws of the State, its powers were to all intents and purposes unlimited....Two other things are interesting to note: first all its meetings began with a prayer and a sacrifice. Second, it was a true democracy. Its two great watchwords were ‘equality’ (insomonia) and ‘freedom’ (eleutheria). It was an assembly where everyone had an equal right and an equal duty to take part.” William Barclay, New Testament Words (Norwich, UK: SCM Press, 1964), 68-69.
+<blockquote>“The ekklesia was the convened assembly of the people [in Greek city-states]. It consisted of all the citizens of the city who had not lost their civic rights. [Ed: actually that was only about 20% of the men, and none of the women. 80% were slaves.] Apart from the fact that its decisions must conform to the laws of the State, its powers were to all intents and purposes unlimited....Two other things are interesting to note: first all its meetings began with a prayer and a sacrifice. Second, it was a true democracy. Its two great watchwords were ‘equality’ (insomonia) and ‘freedom’ (eleutheria). It was an assembly where everyone had an equal right and an equal duty to take part.” William Barclay, New Testament Words (Norwich, UK: SCM Press, 1964), 68-69. </blockquote>
-“The democratic ethos of Tyndale’s New Testament was a threat, not only to the Roman Catholic Church, but to the monarchy....his martyrdom marked the death of the medieval world and the beginning of the modern.
+<blockquote>“The democratic ethos of Tyndale’s New Testament was a threat, not only to the Roman Catholic Church, but to the monarchy....his martyrdom marked the death of the medieval world and the beginning of the modern.</blockquote>
-“ ‘Lord, open the king of England’s eyes!’ Tyndale cried just before he was strangled. Tyndale’s words, incorporated into various versions of the Bible, were read in English churches and around the world. Their authority superseded the authority of the popes. Tyndale’s words shaped the language of Shakespeare, sparked revolutions in England and in America, democratized nations, and ushered in a new civilization where right becomes superior to might.” (Mangalwadi, p. 152-153)
+<blockquote>“ ‘Lord, open the king of England’s eyes!’ Tyndale cried just before he was strangled. Tyndale’s words, incorporated into various versions of the Bible, were read in English churches and around the world. Their authority superseded the authority of the popes. Tyndale’s words shaped the language of Shakespeare, sparked revolutions in England and in America, democratized nations, and ushered in a new civilization where right becomes superior to might.” (Mangalwadi, p. 152-153)</blockquote>

← Older revision		Revision as of 05:37, 23 February 2020
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	19% of the KJV text was copied from the Geneva Bible unaltered, compared with only 4% of the Bishop’s Bible even though King James had ordered his translators to copy the Bishop’s translation as far as accuracy would permit. 83% of the KJV New Testament was copied from the Tyndale translation unaltered, which comes out to 18% of the whole Bible – Tyndale was able to translate only the New Testament before he was executed. 39% of the KJV was original to its translators. [https://www.bibleleaguetrust.org/the-geneva-bible-and-the-authorised-version-compared-2/ BibleLeagueTrust.org]		19% of the KJV text was copied from the Geneva Bible unaltered, compared with only 4% of the Bishop’s Bible even though King James had ordered his translators to copy the Bishop’s translation as far as accuracy would permit. 83% of the KJV New Testament was copied from the Tyndale translation unaltered, which comes out to 18% of the whole Bible – Tyndale was able to translate only the New Testament before he was executed. 39% of the KJV was original to its translators. [https://www.bibleleaguetrust.org/the-geneva-bible-and-the-authorised-version-compared-2/ BibleLeagueTrust.org]
		+
		+	The KJV doesn’t use the word “tyrant” or “tyranny” even once. King James, the world’s leading proponent of “The Divine Right of Kings”, hated the word. The Geneva translation had “tyrannie” in 2 verses, “tyrant” in 7, and “tyrants” in 5, not counting another 16 verses of the Apocrypha.
		+
		+	'''Tyrannie''', 6 verses: Job 3:17; James 2:6; Wisdom 14:20; 16:4; Sirach 10:10; 1 Maccabees 1:67. '''Tyrant''', 15 verses: Job 6:23; 15:20; 27:13; Psalms 54:3; Isaiah 13:11; 49:25; Jeremiah 15:21; Wisdom 6:9; 8:15; 12:14; 14:15; Sirach 11:5; 2 Maccabees 4:25,40; 7:27. '''Tyrants''', 9 verses: Job 6:23; 27:13; Psalms 54:3; Isaiah 13:11; Jeremiah 15:21; Wisdom 6:9; 8:15; 14:15; Sirach 11:5.
		+
		+	But counting the margin notes, “tyrant” variants appear some 400 times. An example, on Exodus 1:22 where Pharaoh ordered all the baby boys drowned: “When tyrants cannot prevail by craft, they burst forth into open rage.” However, not every time the hated word appeared in the Geneva translation, had a corresponding word existed in the original language. For example, James 2:6 Geneva: But ye haue despised the poore. Doe not the riche oppresse you by '''tyrannie''', and doe not they drawe you before the iudgement seates?
		+
		+	[[File:MatthewsBibleMat16.jpg\|right\|frame\|Matthew’s Bible, 1537: “I wil byide my congregacio” This was Tyndale’s 1526 translation, including as much of the Old Testament as Tyndale had been able to complete. This was 2 years before the Great Bible which translated the whole Old Testament]]
		+
		+	[[File:BishopsBibleMat16.jpg\|right\|frame\|Bishop’s Bible, 1568, commissioned by Queen Elizabeth, even though motivated to strengthen her dictatorial power over the Anglican church hierarchy: “I wyll buylde my congregation”]]
		+
		+	'''The Geneva translation of 1560 and 1599''', the one English translation not produced by English citizens living in England although some of its authors had fled England’s ruthless rule under Queen (“Bloody”) Mary, translated “church” in this verse.
		+
		+	Church: the very Name was Controversial. “Tyndale deliberately decided not to translate the Greek word ekklesia as ‘church’. Jesus had used ekklesia to describe the community of followers that he was going to leave behind him. Thanks to Renaissance philologists, Tyndale knew that the word had originally meant a democratic ‘assembly’ or ‘congregation’. In the words of twentieth-century theologian William Barcley.” (The Book that Made Your World, by Vishal Mangalwadi, [Thomas Nelson, 2011] p. 151.)
		+
		+	“The ekklesia was the convened assembly of the people [in Greek city-states]. It consisted of all the citizens of the city who had not lost their civic rights. [Ed: actually that was only about 20% of the men, and none of the women. 80% were slaves.] Apart from the fact that its decisions must conform to the laws of the State, its powers were to all intents and purposes unlimited....Two other things are interesting to note: first all its meetings began with a prayer and a sacrifice. Second, it was a true democracy. Its two great watchwords were ‘equality’ (insomonia) and ‘freedom’ (eleutheria). It was an assembly where everyone had an equal right and an equal duty to take part.” William Barclay, New Testament Words (Norwich, UK: SCM Press, 1964), 68-69.
		+
		+	“The democratic ethos of Tyndale’s New Testament was a threat, not only to the Roman Catholic Church, but to the monarchy....his martyrdom marked the death of the medieval world and the beginning of the modern.
		+
		+	“ ‘Lord, open the king of England’s eyes!’ Tyndale cried just before he was strangled. Tyndale’s words, incorporated into various versions of the Bible, were read in English churches and around the world. Their authority superseded the authority of the popes. Tyndale’s words shaped the language of Shakespeare, sparked revolutions in England and in America, democratized nations, and ushered in a new civilization where right becomes superior to might.” (Mangalwadi, p. 152-153)

@@ Line 60: / Line 60: @@
 There was not another English dictionary until 1755, and then not another until Noah Webster’s 1828 dictionary, the first ''American'' dictionary.
-[[File:RobertCawdreyCathedralChurch.jpg|250px|right|frame|In 1604 "Cathedral" meant the same as "church".]]
+[[File:RobertCawdreyCathedralChurch.jpg|200px|right|frame|In 1604 "Cathedral" meant the same as "church".]]
 “Church” did not have its own separate listing either in 1604, but it is given as a synonym of “cathedral” which is “chief in the diocese”. In order to teach his readers how to find words, readers had to be taught the new concept of alphebetizing words.